What It’s Like Being a New Therapist
Sarah (00:02):
Thank you so much, Jesse, for the intro. Well, hi Liam.
Liam (00:08):
Hey, Sarah. How are you?
Sarah (00:11):
I’m alright. For those listening, Liam and I took a second to get situated here. I feel like that’s pretty fitting given the idea that we’re talking about being new here, this episode. Yeah. So this is a pretty good metaphor for, yeah,
Liam (00:32):
We set all this up for the first time and yeah, we’re both nervous, so
Sarah (00:40):
Yes,
Liam (00:40):
It’s a lot when we started here.
Sarah (00:42):
Yeah. Not too long ago,
Liam (00:45):
Which is, I guess, I guess we’ll just start with question and then see where the conversation goes.
Sarah (00:53):
Do we introduce ourselves? That is,
Liam (00:56):
That’d be important. Go ahead. You start.
Sarah (00:59):
For sure. I’m Sarah. I use she her pronouns. I’ve been at the practice. Liam and I were actually hired at the same time. We’re onboarding buddies, so we just had our 90 days. Is there anything else that you think, or is that the intro?
Our Journey Into Therapy Careers
Liam (01:29):
I dunno. I guess what brought you to being a therapist?
Sarah (01:35):
For sure, and that’s a really good question that I’ve been getting to reflect on a lot recently as I’m kind of meeting different clients and they have that question for me too.
Liam (01:46):
Oh, they ask you that?
Sarah (01:47):
Yeah.
Liam (01:47):
Oh wow.
Sarah (01:48):
Are they not asking you that?
Liam (01:49):
No,
Sarah (01:50):
This is great already. Yeah, I’ve had a few people ask me what got me here, but also to being a therapist in general. That’s nice. Yeah. Love my clients.
Liam (02:02):
So what do you say?
Sarah (02:03):
Yeah, I tell them that it’s five answers and I try my best to, I’m still kind of working on the cohesive narrative of it all. Yeah. I became a therapist for a lot of reasons. I think the one that’s mainly about, well, they’re all about me. I think I’ve always just kind of felt most myself one-on-one with someone. I think people, I talk to them about their childhood memories and they’re on the sports teams, or they have these memories of activities that they would do with people. And all my memories are just long conversations with my friends of just hours and hours and I don’t know, I think that always felt good to me. It’s kind of where I’ve always felt like I belonged most. My grandma and I are very close, and she is also a therapist, so she kind of gave me insight into what this world looks like and my rebellion was telling her that I wasn’t going to become a therapist, but she called it. So that’s been really sweet. I think having her as a person that I can go to and talk through the type of therapist I want to be and the anxieties that come with being in this position.
Liam (03:34):
Yeah. So in your rebellious phase, I dunno how long it was, what were you thinking you would do instead? Or did you pick a different major? I’m just curious.
From Political Organizing to the Therapy Room
Sarah (03:46):
Yeah, I studied sociology and political science, and I did some organizing for a bit. So I knew that I wanted to be involved in some sort of something that would make a difference for people. I really love, still love the, I guess what organizing can bring and the change that it can bring in terms of making sure that we’re just not accepting things and we’re fighting for what people deserve. So yeah, I did that for a bit. I thought maybe I would also go into policy, but yeah, I think ultimately there was just a lot of, I mean, I had the idea of being a therapist in the back of my mind because my grandma was whispering. But I think, yeah, there was a lot of worry about whether or not I could do this as far as, I mean, we’re going to talk about I think what it means to be a therapist to some degree. But yeah, I a lot of, I think it was never the idea that I wouldn’t want to be a therapist. There was just a lot of fear of I would do it if I could hold space for people in the ways that I’m surprised. I’ve also gone to therapy, so maybe in the ways that my therapist has done for me.
(05:28):
So it was kind of always an option in the back of my mind. It took a second to really feel like I could do it.
Liam (05:36):
Yeah, that sounds like it. So you’ve finished undergrad and then how quickly did you move on to graduate?
Sarah (05:50):
I think there were two years in between.
Liam (05:52):
Okay.
Sarah (05:53):
Yeah. So I actually worked at a museum gift shop for a bit.
Liam (06:02):
What museum?
Sarah (06:03):
LACMA.
Liam (06:04):
Wow, okay.
Sarah (06:05):
Yeah, that’s LACMA. And then I worked on a political campaign, got over my fear of, well, I won’t say, got over my fear. I worked on my fear of phone banking, did a lot of phone banking, taught a lot of other people how to phone bank. That campaign ended and then COVID pretty much immediately started. I was asked if I wanted to start on campaigns in Arizona and Kentucky. I said, no, thank you. And truthfully, even if it wasn’t, I am not sure that that would’ve been the path for me. I surprised I’m a therapist, I really value community, and so I think the idea of going somewhere else and starting without having my people was a pretty big barrier. But yeah, it was around then that I think I really started thinking about what I wanted professionally in addition to not having to move states. I think there was something, as much as I loved the process of organizing, it was hard for me to not want to dive deeper with people when they would talk about what brought them to organizing and instead
Liam (07:32):
Totally
Sarah (07:33):
Switch the conversation to, so can you come and volunteer next week?
Liam (07:38):
Right. Oh,
Sarah (07:39):
Yeah.
Liam (07:40):
Yeah. Seemed to limit yourself. Yeah,
Sarah (07:42):
A little bit. Yeah. There was more of an ends, I guess, to a lot of the conversation as in I wanted to really flush out conversations and get to know people better. Then we started to be considering my options, but I also worked as a case manager for a bit, and that’s, I think just a big part of the work as well, helping people connect to resources and what their lives look like outside of the therapy room. It’s all connected.
Liam (08:18):
It is all connected. Yeah. Wow. That is quite the journey.
Sarah (08:23):
You think so? Well now I’m curious, was there not much time between you going from undergrad to grad?
Why We Became Therapists
Liam (08:33):
Well, yeah, I guess I didn’t know that I wanted to be a therapist until I graduated undergrad in May of 2021 and then I, no, 2022. And then I started, I think by August. I was like, I’ll just do this. And it started from a place of I have a hard time working. So I was looking
Sarah (09:10):
In general
Liam (09:10):
In general, I don’t do well with being told to do things I don’t do well with having to be in a place for eight hours. And the idea of that fills me with dread. So I was thinking like, well, therapists kind of by design, you’re not going to be sitting, I mean, in some places for eight hours just doing paperwork and staring at the computer or a cubicle or something, you interact with people, you think about their situation, you get a lot to chew on. And I think it wasn’t really until in my own therapy, things took off in terms of progress. And I realized that while my therapist was helping me in a lot of ways, I was helping her just by being in that relationship.
(10:14):
And so I think while I would’ve liked, I think I used to have this idea that I would be some sort of just sort of a scholar or something sitting alone and thinking big thoughts. And I don’t have particularly big thoughts, but also I get really lonely, and it’s like I just feel like things work best when you’re bouncing off people and sort of understand, in order to understand myself better, I felt like digging in doing serious work with other people would be sort of a double-edged thing. Well, not a double-edged in a good way. You know what I mean? Sure. It’d be, it’s sort of like
Sarah (11:04):
Two birds, one stone.
Liam (11:05):
That’s what I was looking for. Thank you. And yeah, I am learning and I’m also helping, and they’re learning about themselves and they’re also helping me. And I think it’s that kind of relationship that just builds a sense of identity and vulnerability. And so when you really get into that therapeutic relationship is just more than I thought it would be in terms of a guy or a gal sitting with a notepad and just sort of asking questions while you lie on a couch and then not saying much.
Personal Stories That Shaped Our Paths
Sarah (11:48):
Yeah. Can I ask a question?
Liam (11:51):
Yeah.
Sarah (11:52):
You said that your therapist told you or expressed you in some way that it wasn’t just her helping you. It seems like there was some interaction that you understood that you were also helping her. And as someone who’s trying to very much resonates with that idea that my clients are also helping me, but trying to figure out authentic ways of sharing that with them. I’m curious, how did she go about that with you?
Liam (12:21):
I think it started, my relationship with therapy in general was kind of like arms length. I treated it kind of like doctors. And she, at some point, at maybe a year in, because I had so many walls up, it took a while, and we were doing a lot of EMDR and trauma work, so it wasn’t a whole lot of conversation. It was a lot of just tapping and all that. But yeah, about a year and a half in, she said, pretty just forwardly. She’s like, I care about you, and this is, and I think the cynic in me, if I hadn’t had a whole year and a half where she really got to know me, would’ve probably been like, yeah, I pay you. But I believe her. And I think it’s through that her caring for me in some ways. And she didn’t go into specifics about how it helped, but I think she was just like, you’ve one helped me grow as a therapist. So I was one of, when I started with her, she was still an associate and now she’s licensed. Yeah, I think, well, I helped in that way. But then also she was just saying that learning to be vulnerable with different people, not just people she’s used to, I’m not sure that I was her typical client
(14:10):
And just I guess expanding our idea of what’s possible and our sort of tolerance for complexity.
Sarah (14:20):
Sure.
Liam (14:23):
I don’t know, did I answer your question?
Sarah (14:24):
It totally did. Yeah. For those listening, have a huge smile on my face that seems like a really meaningful moment between the two of you, that you could have done so much work and it kind of took that time. It sounds like you wouldn’t have really believed her if she had just set it off the bat, but it was really the time and investment that you had together that what you believe that this was a real
Liam (14:52):
Relationship. Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s a good way to put it. Yeah, and I, I guess you could see it’s anything, like any relationship. I don’t know that the therapeutic relationship is obviously very different than a friendly thing purely, but it still is friendly and it still is almost after a while, a familial kind of interaction every week. But yeah, enough about me, I think. I’m kind of curious because I sort of just talked about how I changed what I thought being a therapist was. And I’m curious pretty broadly, what does it mean to you to be a therapist? What do you feel like your role is?
Therapeutic Lessons from Family, Identity, & Experience
Sarah (15:55):
I mean, we’re talking about this very much in the midst of me. I won’t say figuring it out. Well, maybe figuring it out. But I think I’m constantly evaluating that question in my head. And when I think it’s one thing, I have another session or we have supervision and it turns into something else. I mean, I feel like, I think you said that the therapeutic relationship is relationships in general. And I think we all are looking for different things, even if it’s out of one relationship, we’re kind of looking for different things in different moments depending on where we are in life. I think sometimes it’s really nice to feel heard, I think in my life, and I’m sure in many other folks’ lives, there are plenty of times that we haven’t really felt heard or understood. So allowing that to be the baseline feeling heard, understood, respected. I think one thing, my grandma, when I was very nervous about starting way back in the pre associate days, she had a supervisor tell her that basically folks were paying for a friend.
Liam (17:35):
Oh, wow.
Sarah (17:36):
And though I’m not sure that that’s always the case, it did kind of allow for some of the first, I think, relational aspects to kind of sit with me of I don’t have to necessarily come in as a teacher or as someone that people are looking to for answers, that there’s kind of a permission and people are looking to have some form of friendship. So I think that there’s room for that. And obviously that looks different for different people. I mean, I think there is room for skill building, though I think people go about that differently. My relationship with my therapist who has since passed, she was much older than me in her seventies, and I think that there was very much somewhat a dynamic of maybe not her telling me what to do by any means, but I think there was some hope that she could help me figure it all
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Out.
Sarah (18:56):
And I mentioned the age, but I think we’re all capable of just because we have different lived experiences, being able to help problem solve, figure it out, maybe just not feel so alone in our experience. And then therapy is also plenty of other things. And you want to add to the list that I’ve started?
Liam (19:24):
No, I’m good with that list. I think I do want to respond just echoing kind of, if I can remember what you said I That’s awesome. It was, oh, I guess when it comes down to age and then how, obviously I think for some people it matters sort of from the outside. I do agree that it doesn’t really have to have, somebody obviously has less lived experience, but their experience that they have is still completely unique. And as long as you’re showing up as close to acting from a position of self, being authentic and feeling like you can be authentic and vulnerable, which does take time. And people do, I mean, in this world, have good reasons. Not always to open up like that, but if you’re in a safe space like this room and you are beings just sort of your authentic self, I just think that there’s always something to learn there because your experiences are just completely one of one. And there’s sort of wisdom in everybody at every age. Yeah, I like that.
Redefining What Therapy Really Is
Sarah (21:01):
Yeah, I agree with that. There’s wisdom. And then I think it’s also, are we as therapists imparting wisdom? Is that part of the job? I think you were the one, we were talking about ideas for what we could mention or talk about in this episode. And you had said that I think part of being, or your thoughts on being a therapist are really to just go there with people, especially folks that are struggling with sadness, depression, trauma. There’s not a lot of room for authenticity or at least in a sustained way. I think that,
Liam (21:43):
Yeah, you’re right.
Sarah (21:45):
People. I think trauma dumping gets a bad rap for good reason where maybe you get to go deep with someone once and then all of a sudden it feels a untouchable or you can’t bring it up again. At least that’s been some of my experience and just kind of social interactions where folks are trying to go a bit deeper.
Liam (22:08):
Yeah, that’s a good point. I think it touches on too, sort of the difference between things that we are trauma dumping often are just things that were like, this is what happened. This is my rehearsed sort of, I’m okay sharing this. The things that are hard to share, I mean, it won’t feel like it’s at all a natural thing. It’ll feel very difficult. It’ll feel like maybe you shouldn’t be talking about it. It’ll feel like, is this person really safe? And I feel like that’s the point when that trauma dumping has sort of evolved into just sort of sharing a genuine experience. And yeah, I do also, I think when I say wisdom too, it’s sort of, I guess that does have the connotation of the wise teacher imparting knowledge,
Sarah (23:04):
The philosopher that you wanted to be back in the day
Liam (23:08):
With all my big ideas. But I do think the idea that you would go to somebody and tell them you’re feeling awful, and they sort of give you a worksheet and a bunch of little tools, and they tell you to focus on the positives.
Sarah (23:32):
Isn’t that the worst
Liam (23:33):
When
Sarah (23:33):
Someone tells you to just be happier as if that’s an option that you haven’t thought of?
The Limits of Quick Fixes and Positive Thinking
Liam (23:40):
I know that’s when I do lists. I people are make a list of stuff you’re grateful for. And then I have a list of things that I’m like, oh, I should be grateful. And I’m not. So I have a list of reasons that I’m an even bigger piece of poop. I dunno if we can swear, but yeah,
Sarah (24:00):
I’m pretty sure we should ask, but I’m pretty sure we can.
Liam (24:03):
Okay. Well, they can beep bit shit. Yeah. So yeah, I just think that that’s also sort of right in line with neoliberal, capitalist patriarchy, western, whatever. There’s so many things. It just boils down to you have a problem and it is to be solved. And if you go to somebody, you’re getting a solution. If you’re not getting a solution, it’s sort of like, well, you’re wasting time. You’re wasting money or something.
Liam (24:41):
I think that I do have some clients who are like, can you give me something to do? I feel like poop and you’re not
Sarah (24:49):
Shit.
Liam (24:52):
That too. And I just feel, and they’re like, so what can I do? And obviously there’s little things, but I think largely it’s over time having a space where you can share that and share again and again, the same kind of, I felt hopeless again. I had another moment like this. And just know that I just am willing to join you in that moment. Listen to what it feels like in your body, listen to what thoughts you’re getting really attached to what comes up. And over time, I just think it’s that relationship that starts to, I don’t want to use the word solution, but it sort of becomes a solution in itself by process. It’s like a continual unfolding.
Sarah (25:47):
Totally.
Liam (25:48):
Yeah.
Navigating Doubt as a New Therapist
Sarah (25:49):
I mean, you were starting, I think what you had said is the idea of you go to someone for this quick fix. And I think if we’re talking capitalism, which we always are, what an individualistic thing to do to go to someone and technically have some form of relationship with them, but still be told it’s you that has to figure it out. Here are worksheets, and then I’m going to put my hands up. And if you don’t, either you do the worksheets and maybe I get to say like, oh, you’re doing it wrong, or You weren’t practicing hard enough. But there’s some part of it that the onus falls on the person versus I think what we’re talking about is really fighting against that, through being in community with people that we’re not saying it’s, you we’re saying whatever you’re feeling. It’s going to be us feeling it together. And that, yeah, I’m in this with you.
Liam (26:55):
Yeah, totally. Actually, something you just said makes me kind of curious, and I want to flip it back on you because as much as we talk about just the individual sort of that bootstraps mentality, if it’s not working, you’re not trying hard enough.
Sarah (27:16):
Know it well.
Pushing Back Against Individualism in the Therapy Room
Liam (27:17):
Yeah. Well, so I’m curious, what’s it like for you? What’s the process if you’re working with a client and you feel like, I don’t know, things aren’t changing or it might not work, how do you ground yourself in that? Or I guess just if you don’t, what’s that for you kind of coping with that?
Sarah (27:40):
Yeah, you mean, so the hypothetical is I’m working with someone and they’re expressing to me that maybe they’re not making the progress that they’d hope
Liam (27:49):
For. Sure. Yeah. You’ll say that. And then sort of combating this idea of, well, I mean, they’re paying me and I’m supposed to be in this position of something. I went to school. And so I’m wondering how you kind of parse out when it starts to become like, am I doing good enough? If I was doing better, they wouldn’t be saying this.
Sarah (28:12):
Yeah.
Liam (28:12):
So I’m curious what comes to your mind just in that scenario?
Sarah (28:21):
I think about my community. I feel lucky both to have my aforementioned grandma, but also the people in my life who I have developed really meaningful, hopefully, knock on wood, lifelong partnerships with, because I think part of this is helping people realize that where they are is where they’re supposed to be.
When Clients Don’t Seem to Be Making Progress
(28:55):
And so I have to be able to hold that for people. And of course, the doubts are also kind of circulating in my mind of maybe I’m not doing enough, or maybe if they were seeing someone else, things would be different. And I think it’s okay to some extent express that to people, what’s actually going on for me? But I think especially in this first couple of years of associateship where I’m still looking for that grounding and moments where I’m really struggling and I’m like, wait, what am I doing here? What’s going on? It’s really helpful to have people that have been there along the way in the same way that I’m hoping that I’m acknowledging the changes that I’m seeing for other folks that maybe they’re not noticing.
(29:54):
I mean, I get that too. From the people that I’ve built connections with, they’re able to reflect back and show me the ways that they’ve seen me change and grow. And that doesn’t mean that I’m always looking for a pep talk, but it’s kind of like a parallel process in some ways. I think in order me to do that for other people, I have to rely on people to do that for me. And I have to be honest about what’s coming up for me. Not just everything’s great, but there are days that are really rough that I’m questioning my abilities. I have to be honest about that with people in order to have that process with them. So hopefully I can have some pretty heavy shoes to keep me grounded.
Grounding Yourself Through Supervision & Community
Liam (30:48):
I think that also speaks to, I mean, as therapists, it’s part of the job that we are continually being introspective and looking in and seeing what’s coming up and exploring areas with that maybe we don’t want to go. And I think that’s something that drew me. It would sort of encourage me to never be, a lot of people who I knew growing up adults in my life, who seemed like they kind of stopped expanding in their late twenties, and they sort of had this very rigid way that the world worked and the way that they worked. And I like that it encourages you to always be looking for people to tell you how it is, but also you look into yourself and recognize that, I mean, there’s never going to be a finished, I’m now a therapist who is done growing and I have nothing but care and wisdom to impart. It’s just accepting that it’s all a process, and that is complicated.
Sarah (32:15):
Sure. I mean, I think it’s evident when I feel my responses changing to similar life. Everyone’s experience is different, and there are just things that happen in life that sometimes happen to people at different times, like a promotion or a loss or a move. And it’s interesting having worked with one person and noticing how I felt and reacted and how I went about that session versus how I may go about it now. Of course, it’s about being in relationship with different people and different people kind of evoke different responses in all of us.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Absolutely.
Sarah (32:59):
But I think it’s also this process that this journey that we’re both on of just recognizing that we’re changing and growing as people as well.
Liam (33:09):
Yeah. And I think it’s, if the only consistency is sort of change in growth, I mean, I have no idea. I hope maybe someday it starts to sitting with more and more complexity and more and more ambiguity and things like that becomes, I guess, not comfortable. But I guess I sort of experienced the discomfort in a more curious way. Not so much wanting it to end and just wanting to feel good, but just remaining curious. I think that’s what keeps everybody going, and that’s important. It’s therapist especially. I feel like we’re basically out of time. Oh,
Sarah (34:01):
Wow. That went by quickly. Yes.
Building Authentic, Relational Healing Spaces
Liam (34:03):
Yeah. But I’m curious how this was your first
Sarah (34:07):
Podcast. This was my first time on the podcast. I mean, as you probably, hopefully the tone of my voice has evened out more toward the end. I feel a lot calmer. I’m recognizing that I just have so many questions about you and how I know we’ve been having a lot of conversations about starting up here and what it’s bringing up for us and how we can learn and grow from our experiences. But there’s something just very sweet about getting to have this time to actually sit and reflect on the ways that our experiences are shared and differed. And even if that’s for our many, many followers that get to hear that as well. I mean, we talked about community. I think there’s something really nice and kind of having this personal conversation that hopefully plants a seed and allows for that community to grow.
Liam (35:10):
Yeah, definitely. I think you actually make a good point that I don’t know if this has been done, but if not we, I feel like we struck gold in terms of having any two people on the team sit down and just see where the conversation goes. I mean, it’s a group of thoughtful people. It’s a group of people with a lot to say. And I also was interested in what you were saying. I had to stop from just making this an interview. So
Sarah (35:45):
I think we did a good balance.
Liam (35:47):
Yeah. Well, we’ll let the reviews decide.
Sarah (35:50):
Yeah.
Liam (35:51):
But yeah, I appreciate your time. And I dunno, do you have any closing remarks?
Advice for Aspiring Therapists
Sarah (36:00):
Closing remarks? Maybe. I mean, we both talked about how we have changed and grown to get to this position. I think that’s just to say that, and not like anyone can do this, but I think for those listening maybe that are interested in careers and mental health or are kind of wondering if they’re cut out for it, I would just maybe use this moment to say that. It’s not like I woke up one day and said, this is what I’m meant to do. Although I very much feel this way now. It took a lot of hard conversation and reflection. And if that’s at all something that’s coming up for you and you happen to be with us at Kindman & Co., I think we can also use our own experiences to kind of share what the process was like for us and help you figure that out too.
You Don’t Have to Have It All Figured Out
Liam (36:57):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s all, this will be my closing thing. I realize my mind wants to start another conversation, but just mean the barrier to entry of having to go to graduate school is a pain in the butt. And I think you’re right. And anybody could kind of do this as long as they were willing to engage in the difficult, just be mired in the shit of themselves for a while.
Sarah (37:31):
Proud of you for saying shit.
Liam (37:33):
Yeah.
Sarah (37:34):
Thank
Liam (37:34):
You. I’ve grown
Sarah (37:38):
In the course of this conversation.
Liam (37:39):
Yeah, I have. I’m embracing the ambiguity of what will happen because I’ve said shit. Yeah. But I think you’re right. Anybody could do it as long as they’re willing to be vulnerable. And I think that’s one of the best parts about being in therapy as a client is it’s just that space to practice again and again, being as authentic as possible and really putting down all those repressive mechanisms.
Sarah (38:07):
Yeah.
Liam (38:07):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much.
Sarah (38:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Liam (38:11):
Yeah, it was wonderful talking to you. And I don’t know when we’ll be back on. We’ll be on a podcast eventually
Sarah (38:18):
Again. Yeah, no, you’ll hear from us again. This wasn’t as scary as I thought it would be. I’ve also changed and grown in the course of this conversation. Wonderful. So I’ll be
Liam (38:26):
Back. Wonderful. Alright. Thanks Jesse. Take it away.